MotoGP - Discutii tehnice

[PzKpfW]

Sau dacă nu ar fi italieni cu totul, nu?

 

[PzKpfW]

18 hours ago, prafrau said:

in momentul asta, daca doar ducati are mass damper e doar fiindca ceilalti il considera inutil

sanse mai mari sa nu existe totusi

 

Ok, se pare că m-am înșelat:

 

 

Este cât se poate de clar - "salata" este un mass-damper cu amortizor hidraulic. Dar este la fel de clar că este plin de electronică acolo, mai multă decât ar fi nevoie pentru controlul mass-damper-ului. Impresionant cât de bine este împachetat totul.

 

În consecință sunt destul de convins că și ceilalți (Honda și Aprilia) folosesc așa ceva.

 

  

[xt600]

La 27.10.2022 la 19:46, PzKpfW a spus:

 Dar este la fel de clar că este plin de electronică acolo, mai multă decât ar fi nevoie pentru controlul mass-damper-ului. Impresionant cât de bine este împachetat totul.

Imi face impresia ca se cam ocoleste regula electronicii unice...  

 

In alta ordine de idei, nu stiu daca s-a mai postat: https://www.gpone.com/en/2022/10/15/motogp/thar-she-blows-honda-inspired-by-ducati-and-moby-dick.html?related=1

[Le Mertois]

Acum 4 ore, xt600 a spus:

Imi face impresia ca se cam ocoleste regula electronicii unice...  

 

In alta ordine de idei, nu stiu daca s-a mai postat: https://www.gpone.com/en/2022/10/15/motogp/thar-she-blows-honda-inspired-by-ducati-and-moby-dick.html?related=1

E soft unic,nu electronică...

[PzKpfW]

1 hour ago, Le Mertois said:

E soft unic,nu electronică...

 

Software + ECU sunt la fel pentru toată lumea. Restul pachetului hardware nu este standard, deci este normal să existe diferențe externe. Oricium nu cred că se pune problema ca cei de la Ducati să fie ilegali. Motocicletele sunt verificate și omologate de către FIM.

 

Prin "mai multă electronică decât ar fi nevoie" mă refeream la faptul că a fost deplasată acolo din alte locuri - cel mai probabil din botul motocicletei, pentru a avea mai multă libertate în ceea ce provește aerodinamica.

[xt600]

1 oră în urmă, PzKpfW a spus:

 

Prin "mai multă electronică decât ar fi nevoie" mă refeream la faptul că a fost deplasată acolo din alte locuri - cel mai probabil din botul motocicletei, pentru a avea mai multă libertate în ceea ce provește aerodinamica.

Da, asta ar avea sens. 

Acum 2 ore, Le Mertois a spus:

E soft unic,nu electronică...

Da, corect. Ma gandeam la hardware cu ceva soft suplimentar, insa cred ca @PzKpfW are dreptate. 

[PzKpfW]

“Everyone thinks the Yamaha is a smooth bike, but not any more. You used to be able to ride it with one hand and you’d have rookies on satellite bikes getting podiums, but now Fabio is the only guy who can get the most out of the bike because it’s more aggressive. That’s a combination of geometry, downforce aero and so on. And by the way, I’m a firm believer in downforce aero because at 200mph it’s safer with the front wheel on the ground.” - Cal Crutchlow

 

“To ride with the other guys Fabio is very much on the limit, riding without any margin, basically. And if you are over the limit at every corner on every lap then it’s easy to make mistakes. So, yes, the Phillip Island crash happened because he was riding over the limit.

 

During this season we learned that at many tracks where in the past we were very strong that it’s not like that anymore, because Aprilia and Ducati have closed the gap in the turning ability of their bikes, so now we are fighting with the same turning performance but with less power than them. Like here at Valencia there are a lot of tight corners, which was an advantage for us in the past, but now not really, so it’s not easy.

 

Not all the parts where we can make more power are sealed, for example the throttle bodies and exhaust, but we can also improve this area of performance by better turning, better exit traction and less wheelie, via the wings, so working on all of these factors actually helped us improve the acceleration area. Like everything in MotoGP, it’s a combination of many things.

 

The big thing in MotoGP now is stopping the bike and turning it fast, so the rider can lift up the bike to use the rear tyre’s larger contact patch to open the throttle harder and sooner, so it’s no longer about big, arcing cornering lines.

 

With our bike we need to ride like that because we perform better, but the good point of Fabio is that he can brake really hard and at same time carry a lot of speed into the corner. Also during the first acceleration phase, from the edge of the tyre to the pick-up area, he is quite strong, so this is where he is better compared to the other Yamaha riders.

It’s true that when we are fighting with other bikes, especially like at the last few races, we cannot ride the Yamaha in the old way, because the Ducatis can easily overtake us on the straight and then they can stop us in corners. For that reason the first step is try to reduce the gap in top speed and also to learn how to perform more like our competitors. This is a process we are going through – changing the bike a bit and changing Fabio.

 

(...) having a powerful engine isn’t only about top speed. It lets you decide the amount of downforce aero you can use, because of course the extra drag costs you some top speed, but with more downforce you gain a lot of grip and you have less wheelie, so finally your overall performance is better. That’s why we need more power to decide how to optimise this aspect of the bike." - Diego Gubellini (Yamaha crew chief)

[ioio_viola]

se pregateste o schimbare tehnica in 2027.

 

https://www.gpone.com/en/2023/01/12/motogp/cecchinelli-says-that-dorna-also-intends-to-bring-in-a-ban-on-rear-ride-height

 

 

[xt600]

https://www.crash.net/motogp/feature/1018824/1/exclusive-front-rideheight-ban-correct-thing-do-rear-next

[PzKpfW]

Că va deveni ilegal sau nu, dinamica va rămâne aceeași și ciclul se va repeta. Se vor găsi alte elemente care să aducă performanță și care vor fi probabil la fel de irelevante pentru motocicletele de stradă. Regulamentul va fi doar reactiv, la fel ca în F1. Asta este o competiție de prototipuri.

[ENEOS]

Acum 16 ore, ioio_viola a spus:

se pregateste o schimbare tehnica in 2027.

Pfff, până atunci o să avem 10000 km de autostradă în România! Not...

Dpmdv sunt speculații și nu se pot face previziuni așa îndepărtate. 

[ioio_viola]

Aprilia’s MotoGP aero: ‘It’s a new world, like when Columbus went to America!’ 

JANUARY 17TH 2023

Aprilia goes into the 2023 MotoGP world championship as a genuine title challenger. Technical director Romano Albesiano guides us through the latest RS-GP developments, from engine to aero

 

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/motorcycles/motogp/aprilias-motogp-aero-its-a-new-world-like-when-columbus-went-to-america?v=f5b15f58caba

 

Mat Oxley: What were the positives and negatives of the RS-GP’s performance in 2022?

Albesiano: There wasn’t one big item we developed, so it’s been a general increase of performance, on the engine side, the chassis side, in the aerodynamics and in the way we work on track to optimise all the parameters, which is a vital factor. The weak point has been the consistency of performance, because we had a few races where the performance wasn’t aligned with the rest of the season, which was a surprise for us.

...

The rear wing you used at Mugello was a bolt-on part, so will you have built-in rear aero for 2023?

The seat area is outside the aero homologation rules, so in theory you can change that area at every race. There’s a lot to discover in that area. We started experimenting with a small rear wing and we plan to do more.

...

What happened to you at those four flyaways: Japan, Thailand, Australia and Malaysia?

We had the incident at Motegi, which was a really trivial mistake, just click of a mouse, basically. OK, we can improve our procedures in these areas and we will do that for sure. But what happened at Motegi was like a hammer blow for us.

Then in Thailand we had trouble with grip, the first time, so this was very surprising and this is one of the two races we still need to understand. Then at Phillip Island we had quite good race, except for a detail in the traction-control setting, which was a small mistake. Nobody is perfect. Then Malaysia is the second race to understand. For sure Aleix expected more because we were so fast in winter testing. That’s the point I mentioned earlier – we need to understand these races to have a more solid, consistent performance in the future.

...

You have lost concessions for 2023, so you can’t do any engine development during the season and your riders will have fewer engines, so is this a big deal?

The process is different – you have to decide your engine configuration earlier, because you have to buy a lot of parts and assemble more engines. But if I look at the 2022 season we didn’t really introduce any real changes in the engine during the season, in the parameters that are limited by engine sealing. Of course you can still change the exhaust, the airbox, the throttle-body system and you can change the fuel and the oil.

So it will be basically the same and I’m not too concerned, maybe just a little bit, because we have to serve double the number of riders. This is a level of complication that we have to do carefully but we are preparing for this.

 

 

mai multe in link

[PzKpfW]

1 hour ago, ioio_viola said:

The rear wing you used at Mugello was a bolt-on part, so will you have built-in rear aero for 2023?

The seat area is outside the aero homologation rules, so in theory you can change that area at every race. There’s a lot to discover in that area. We started experimenting with a small rear wing and we plan to do more.

 

Interesant.

 

1 hour ago, ioio_viola said:

What happened to you at those four flyaways: Japan, Thailand, Australia and Malaysia?

We had the incident at Motegi, which was a really trivial mistake, just click of a mouse, basically. OK, we can improve our procedures in these areas and we will do that for sure. But what happened at Motegi was like a hammer blow for us.

Then in Thailand we had trouble with grip, the first time, so this was very surprising and this is one of the two races we still need to understand. Then at Phillip Island we had quite good race, except for a detail in the traction-control setting, which was a small mistake. Nobody is perfect. Then Malaysia is the second race to understand. For sure Aleix expected more because we were so fast in winter testing. That’s the point I mentioned earlier – we need to understand these races to have a more solid, consistent performance in the future.

 

Lipsă de maturitate și experiență. Vor evolua clar pe partea asta.

[PzKpfW]

Evoluția recentă a părții frontale la Desmo16:

 

 

Din 2020, doar evoluții subtile și rafinament.

 

Și schimbările (subtile și ele) ale RCV-ului între Valencia 2022 și Jerez 2023.

 

[ENEOS]

Acum 15 ore, PzKpfW a spus:

 

Aripile de genu' ăsta nu erau interzise?

[PzKpfW]

Nu, aripile de genul ăsta sunt interzise:

 

 

Cu alte cuvinte mai multe aripi distincte (cu "capăt deschis") pe fiecare parte.

[damager]

La 10.01.2023 la 19:26, PzKpfW a spus:

“Everyone thinks the Yamaha is a smooth bike, but not any more. You used to be able to ride it with one hand and you’d have rookies on satellite bikes getting podiums, but now Fabio is the only guy who can get the most out of the bike because it’s more aggressive. That’s a combination of geometry, downforce aero and so on. And by the way, I’m a firm believer in downforce aero because at 200mph it’s safer with the front wheel on the ground.” - Cal Crutchlow

 

“To ride with the other guys Fabio is very much on the limit, riding without any margin, basically. And if you are over the limit at every corner on every lap then it’s easy to make mistakes. So, yes, the Phillip Island crash happened because he was riding over the limit.

 

During this season we learned that at many tracks where in the past we were very strong that it’s not like that anymore, because Aprilia and Ducati have closed the gap in the turning ability of their bikes, so now we are fighting with the same turning performance but with less power than them. Like here at Valencia there are a lot of tight corners, which was an advantage for us in the past, but now not really, so it’s not easy.

 

Not all the parts where we can make more power are sealed, for example the throttle bodies and exhaust, but we can also improve this area of performance by better turning, better exit traction and less wheelie, via the wings, so working on all of these factors actually helped us improve the acceleration area. Like everything in MotoGP, it’s a combination of many things.

 

The big thing in MotoGP now is stopping the bike and turning it fast, so the rider can lift up the bike to use the rear tyre’s larger contact patch to open the throttle harder and sooner, so it’s no longer about big, arcing cornering lines.

 

With our bike we need to ride like that because we perform better, but the good point of Fabio is that he can brake really hard and at same time carry a lot of speed into the corner. Also during the first acceleration phase, from the edge of the tyre to the pick-up area, he is quite strong, so this is where he is better compared to the other Yamaha riders.

It’s true that when we are fighting with other bikes, especially like at the last few races, we cannot ride the Yamaha in the old way, because the Ducatis can easily overtake us on the straight and then they can stop us in corners. For that reason the first step is try to reduce the gap in top speed and also to learn how to perform more like our competitors. This is a process we are going through – changing the bike a bit and changing Fabio.

 

(...) having a powerful engine isn’t only about top speed. It lets you decide the amount of downforce aero you can use, because of course the extra drag costs you some top speed, but with more downforce you gain a lot of grip and you have less wheelie, so finally your overall performance is better. That’s why we need more power to decide how to optimise this aspect of the bike." - Diego Gubellini (Yamaha crew chief)

pai zice cam tot ce ziceam noi anul trecut nu?

[PzKpfW]

 

Basculă nouă și aripi pe carena laterală la Yamaha.

 

Aprilia, cu extractoare de aer NACA pe carena frontală.

 

 

 

Honda se pare că a rotit motorul spre spate pentru mai mult grip.

 

 

 

 

 

Ducati cu o variantă pare-se mai rafinată a carenelor laterale de la Aprilia

 

 

 

RC16 devine un Desmo16

 

 

 

Noua variantă de aripi frontale la Yamaha

 

 

Nouă carenă laterală la KTM

 

[prafrau]

La 06.02.2023 la 11:57, PzKpfW a spus:

 

 

aia e o interpretare foarte interesanta a literei regulamentului

[PzKpfW]

2 minutes ago, prafrau said:

aia e o interpretare foarte interesanta a literei regulamentului

 

În ce sens? Îmi aduc puțin aminte de prima versiune de aripi a celor de la Suzuki, în 2018.

 

[prafrau]

Acum 1 oră, PzKpfW a spus:

 

În ce sens? Îmi aduc puțin aminte de prima versiune de aripi a celor de la Suzuki, în 2018.

 

 

Regulamentul motogp interzice aripile "proeminente" (protruding), si spune ca toate componentele aerodinamice trebuie integrate in carena din motive de siguranta. Motivul era ca teoretic un colt sau o muchie expusa ar putea destul de usor sa raneasca un pilot. De asta toti au trecut la aripile duble cu un endplate, suprafata de contact mai mare la un impact.

In poza cu yamaha de mai sus e clar ca aripile superioare (de langa admisie) sunt, in esenta, identice cu aripile interzise acum cativa ani, fiindca, chiar daca au 2 componente, sunt in acelasi plan.

Probabil respecta litera regulilor, nu si spiritul.

[PzKpfW]

Înțeleg ce zici, și da, așa este. Dar și Honda mi se pare că merge oarecum în aceeași direcție, deși la ei este mai clară separarea celor două plane.

 

 

Interesant și cum la carenele laterale europenii urmează aceeași cale (deschisă anul trecut de Aprilia) cu "ground-effect", pe când Yamaha și Honda nu au încercat încă așa ceva. Sunt destul de sigur că e doar o chestiune de timp.

On 2/6/2023 at 11:57 AM, PzKpfW said:

Nouă carenă laterală la KTM

 

O poză și din față cu noul pachet aero testat de Pedrosa astăzi

 

 

Pe o notă adiacentă - interesant faptul că cei de la KTM par să fie sponsorizați de către Cupra (sub-brand al Seat, deținut de către Audi). Ultima dată au apărut chiar pe carena celor de la Ducati, în 2018.

 

 

On 2/8/2023 at 12:19 AM, PzKpfW said:

Interesant și cum la carenele laterale europenii urmează aceeași cale (deschisă anul trecut de Aprilia) cu "ground-effect", pe când Yamaha și Honda nu au încercat încă așa ceva. Sunt destul de sigur că e doar o chestiune de timp.

 

N-a durat mult...

 

 

Articol foarte interesant despre cum funcționează aerodinamica la nivelul carenelor laterale ale celor de la Aprilia.

 

 

Ca nivel de complexitate al implementării, Aprilia pare să le ia fața celor de la Ducati în ceea ce privește partea de aero.

[Le Mertois]

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/1020171/1/very-dangerous-bezzecchi-wants-tyre-pressure-resolution-michelin

[prafrau]

La 08.02.2023 la 0:19, PzKpfW a spus:

Articol foarte interesant despre cum funcționează aerodinamica la nivelul carenelor laterale ale celor de la Aprilia.

 

 

 

Ca nivel de complexitate al implementării, Aprilia pare să le ia fața celor de la Ducati în ceea ce privește partea de aero.

 

nu sunt convins de avantaje, cred ca genunchiul ala din mijlocul zonei lor de presiune scazuta strica toata treaba

asta si evacuarea asimetrica

[PzKpfW]

On 2/8/2023 at 12:19 AM, PzKpfW said:

N-a durat mult...

 

 

9 hours ago, prafrau said:

nu sunt convins de avantaje

 

Având în vedere că acum toată lumea le folosește (sau măcar le-a încercat) e clar că au un anumit nivel de eficacitate. "Difuzoarele" la fel; încercate și de către KTM și Yamaha.

 

  

 

Lucru interesant spus de către Aleix: Aprilia au (probabil) cel mai bun șasiu, dar Ducati sunt încă de departe cei mai buni pe frânare.

 

Aleix Espargaró

The braking, that is where Ducati is incredible. I have the best chassis, no other bike has the cornering speed of the Aprilia, but that's no longer important in MotoGP. Since Dovizioso, Ducati started braking very hard and accelerating very early, so it was a nightmare for Márquez to overtake him. From what I've seen in the videos, they manage to stop the bike using both wheels, not just the front. 

 

 

Márquez se pare că s-a decis pe care dintre cele 3 motociclete o va folosi în 2023 - ca bază. Nu s-a decis însă și asupra aerodinamicii (ce carene, ce aripi, etc.). 

 

5 hours ago, Method said:

Artificii ce mi se par interesante de la ultimul test :

Aprilia :   si KTM :

 

În afară de sculptura pe partea superioară a carenei, KTM nu a venit cu nimic nou. Au copiat și testat aerodinamica Aprilia și Ducati. La fel ca și celor de la Honda, le va fi greu să analizeze și să tragă concluzii relevante după atâtea combinații de elemente aero pe care nu le înțeleg la fel de bine ca italienii. Interesant totuși, KTM par să fie singurii care nu folosesc un mass-damper în coada motocicletei.

 

 

Piloții Ducati se pare că au ales carena "clasică" (cu difuzoare) pentru 2023, în detrimentul celei cu ground effect.